Elven Academy

In the past two months, many, many improvements have been made to the game now called Elven Academy. Several more sound files are added. I’ve written a new game module and a new book for the in-game library: Fungus Facts!

I’m currently concerned about the 6 MMO-style faction reputation attributes. They aren’t fitting into a dialog-based single-player RPG. I either need to replace them with stats that provide more gameplay, or I need to find better ways to use them.

The elves and fairies are hardcore negotiators. They will steal your voice, steal your life, destroy your farm, and abduct your firstborn if you cross them.

Maybe I need diplomacy stats that offer gameplay, instead of the old boring reputation scores representing how much different factions like you, which only really offer rewards. So let’s research different diplomacy systems and ideas from articles and blog posts online.

Below is a digest of the each system, with a reaction summary. At the end, hopefully, we’ll have a useful conclusion.

Vampire the Masquerade: Storyteller System

The White Wolf wiki mentions the concept of “a character’s natural prowess and learned ability coming together to perform a task.” The “storyteller system” used by VtM/White Wolf, categorizes physical, social and mental attributes. These are for tabletop roleplaying, so we need to keep that in mind.

Social attributes:

Charisma
Manipulation
Appearance

Mental attributes:

Intelligence
Perception
Wits

Social Skills:

Animal Ken
Empathy
Expression
Intimidation
Persuasion
Socialize
Streetwise
Subterfuge (aka Deception in other systems)

Mental Skills:

(Various i.e. Medicine, Politics, Science, Computer, Academics, etc.)

Analysis: According to White Wolf’s Storyteller game System, an attribute + a skill creates a Dice Pool to roll to attempt an action. I’m not sure I want to use that in a CRPG, but I do want to derive character stats created by mixing skills and attributes.

Elven Academy has 6 attributes and 6 skills, so this approach seems promising. I really want to look at VtM:Bloodlines now (the CRPG), but let’s look at a few other tabletop games first.

Tunnels and Trolls (Deluxe Ed. 2015):

T&T has a talent system among its rule extensions in the latest edition. Looking through the list for ideas, I find:

Charming. This is literally the #1 stat in Elven Academy.
Cleverness. This is almost literally the #2 stat in Elven Academy. I didn’t copy T&T. I swear. Except for the Luck attribute. I’ll admit to an abnormal respect for Luck due to T&T, but it does fit into a fairy/elf/Irish themed setting.
Diplomat is included in a cultural category that includes History, Literature, and Poetry. I would like to do better in this area in an elf game, but stats could get bloated.
Persuasion. Leadership and Seduction are subcategories.

Analysis: This is why Tunnels and Trolls, although obscure, is an influence. It was created way back in the beginning as a KISS system. That’s why I started with it as a kid in the 1970s, and there is a lot of wisdom in that design principle.

5E D&D:

Neither the PHB or the DMG has Diplomacy or Reputation listed in their indexes. That’s a problem. 5E removed the Diplomacy skills.

Languages. Languages? D&D is still using languages for roleplay? Not something I ever considered as part of diplomacy, but it’s realistic and something to consider in game writing.

Feats of Actor, Leader, and Linguist.

“Fuck the 5E,” declared the party leader, with a grandiose tone. “No Diplomacy?”

Analysis: Is a dedicated Diplomacy skill useful? In my RPG project, I designated the attributes Charm and Cunning to be the primary diplomatic skill checks (currently), because they are personal. Whether you are more charming or more devious (as shown in the dialog text), you have more agency in the immediate outcome in the conversation.

Negatives: Diplomacy (as a skill) seems fitting for sitting down for a political negotiation in a meeting room. It works for a D&D live game where you want to sum up a scenario into a result/outcome instead of talking it all out. Surely 5E has a system, and I can’t find it in the books or online. So let’s go back in time.

3.5E D&D (Baldur’s Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights):

Appraise.

Bluff! Remember Bluff? Remember using Bluff in combat? That was silly. Then you have the Sense Motive skill in 3.5E to evade a bluff.

Diplomacy. DnD 3E and 3.5 had Diplomacy skill checks, with a DC based on initial attitude of the NPC (Hostile, Unfriendly, Indiffferent, Friendly, or Helpful). Success on the check moves the NPC’s attitude level. Charisma modifies the check

Disguise.
Forgery.
Gather Information.
Intimidate skill. The Persuasive feat gives a bonus.
Sense Motive.

Analysis: I like Intimidation. I do have a Fighter skill, which is underused. This and Cunning would go very well towards an Intimidation score. Suppose a monk is playing a Charm/Fighter ‘build’ in the game. Currently only Cunning can reasonably intimidate, since Fighter intimidation doesn’t really make sense in most elven diplomacy. Martial presence would just play a small factor. So I’m liking these amalgam diplomacy skills here.

Negatives: I can’t imagine using Bluff against elves very successfully. I notice these 3.5E skills again seem to be oriented towards tabletop, DM’d gameplay. There is a passage of time that’s awkward in an RPG? I need to work on expanding time in my CRPG. Allow actions that take much more time. Is worth an entire skill slot out of the 18 that I’m using?

3.5E D&D (Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2):

After reviewing D&D rules, it’s clear that many tabletop roleplay skills don’t translate well to a CRPG. So let’s study games again, instead.

NWN divided Diplomacy into Persuade and Taunt. Animal Empathy. Lore.
NWN2 brought in Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, and Appraise.

Analysis: Someone in a NWN2 forum asked if party members contribute to Diplomacy. This is an interesting idea, since I’ve gone to the trouble of allowing the player to customize their party a bit when the embark on a module. Currently, I allow the player to ask a party member to handle something. I could consider modifications to rolls based on the company you keep.

Negatives: These options are underwhelming, made for a game where you are supposed to fight 90% of the time.

Fallout 1,2:

F1,2: Deception, Persuasion, Speech
F3: Barter, Speech (limited by Charisma)

Analysis: Fallout 3 actually removed a number of roleplay skills. Lame. I don’t really find other CRPGs that add to what has already been mentioned. Sadly.

Knights of the Old Republic (KOTOR):

Awareness (Wisdom) – used to spot mines.
Persuade (Charisma) – Level up to pass dialogue options.
Affect/Dominate mind – Jedi mind tricks! Worth considering.

It’s also worth noting that squad mates can help with skills in KOTOR. That’s about it. I searched Steam and found zero RPG’s tagged with diplomacy.

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines:

Let’s look, at last, at the most promising inspiration for my CRPG design issues, which is the VtM:Bloodlines CRPG. Let’s see how they are putting attributes and skills together to form derived diplomacy-related stats, as mentioned by the White Wolf general game system wiki.

To be clear, I’m looking for inspiration, not emulation. The world of elves is very different from the world of vampires. For reference, I’m looking at a VtMB character sheet. https://vtmb.fandom.com/wiki/Character_Sheet

I have Charm and Cunning as main stats in my game. This sort of correlates to light side/dark side choices in Star Wars RPG dialogues. If I add an Appearance score to my character sheet, as a stat derived from quality level of outfit and perfume, that roughly correlates to the three VTMB social attributes.

I have a Perception stat as my third social/mental main stat of six. The other three are Toughness, Agility, and Luck. “Wits” in VTMB seems to be related to things like Hacking and Defense. “Intelligence” is not something I want. This post sums up my thoughts on it.

So I have three Social attributes: Charm, Cunning, and Appearance. Perception will also be useful. Next I’ll try to mix them with skills to create some new, useful diplomacy abilities, using everything I’ve gathered in my research.

Current learned skills in the game system:

Aesthetics (includes sense of fashion and style)
Scholar (includes history, literature)
Psychic (mind-reading, divination)
Craftsman (???)
Ranger (includes botany)
Fighter (???)

Learned skills used in other game systems:

Affect/Dominate Mind*
Animal Ken*
Barter
Deception
Empathy*
Expression*
Intimidation*
Persuasion
Socialize*
Speech (public speaking?)
Streetwise–will not use, this is a forest
Subterfuge–dupe of deception
Disguise.–not worth a skill
Forgery.*
Gather Information.+worth a look
Lie–dupe of deception
Jest–not worth a skill, just say the jest
Plead--persuasion
Fascinate–seduction
Perform–already have in aesthetics
Inspire–similar to Leadership

Analysis:

*Existing Aesthetics skill includes Expression, Socialize.
*Psychic skill could include Affect/dominate mind, Animal Ken, and Empathy.
*Craftsman could include Forgery.
*Fighter skill could contribute to Intimidation.

Gather Info is a time dilating/skipping skill, to be considered as a new game design approach. So the only categories not covered are Barter/Merchant. Deception, and Persuasion. Let’s move those down to a possible new diplomatic ability.

Possible derived diplomatic abilities:

Barter/Haggle/Merchant
Deception
Intimidate
Persuasion
Seduction dupe of Persuasion, Affect/Dominate Mind or Fascinate?
Leadership
Sense Motive.
Bluff, Lie–no, can be rolled into Deception

I need six derived diplomacy skills to swap out the boring set of rep scores and go “full diplomacy” mode. Do we have enough? It looks sketchy.

The problem I see is that Charm and Cunning are essentially lightside and darkside stats in the game. So a 100% build with one or the other will have trouble with certain diplomacy options. Seems fair, but they need to be balanced. That leads to a 3-stat derivation instead of two.

Charm-based Diplomacy:

Leadership** (includes Inspire): Charm + Ranger + Appearance
Empathy : (includes Sense Motive) Charm + Psychic + Aesthetics

Mixed Or Non-Charm/Cunning Diplomacy:

Mercantile (includes Haggle and Barter): Perception + Luck + Craftsman
Persuasion (includes Fascination, Seduction): Charm + Cunning + Appearance

Cunning-based Diplomacy:

Intimidation : Cunning + Toughness + Fighter
Deception (includes Bluffing and Lying) : Cunning + Perception + Appearance

Analysis: I’m remembering now why I created only 6 attributes and 6 skills. It’s because I was concerned I wouldn’t be able to create enough gameplay to satisfy the existence of more stats. The best RPG’s we have only use a small handful of simple diplomatic stats in conversations.

Also can I realistically add enough conversation options to satisfy these additional abilities? Will all of these stats confuse the casual player too much, and all be underutilized?

I do think they would satisfy the thinking RPG player who wants to get into the stats. I don’t think I need the complexity of the Storyteller dice roll system. I would definitely like to include more diplomacy in the game, with meaningful branching outcomes to dialogues.

At this time, I’m still keeping the reputation scores as invisible stats, quantified results of diplomacy. I need to find rewards to pay off the use of the diplomacy skills.

Final Bullet Points To Mull Over:

1. Natural ability + learned ability = Approach to a task (Storyteller system.)
2. Consider racial languages as a feature of the game writing.
3. Consider leaving immediate time sequence and writing diplomacy (or etc.) that skips a block of time, to leverage the player imagination into feeling a lot more is happening.
4. Allow party members to contribute to diplomacy?
5. Affect/dominate mind. Jedi and Sith. Vampires. These are huge favorites, worth considering in the gameplay and/or story writing.
6. Beware of diplomatic solutions giving significantly less rewards than violence.

**EDIT- after revising the game code for the new 6-skill diplomacy system, I decided to replace Leadership with Presence.  This is coincidentally a Discipline in in VTMB, which essentially boils down to mind control.

My concept is human presence, which encompasses Personality, Speech, Leadership, and other subtleties. I feel “Leadership” is not quite the right feel for a game that values emo, non-violence, tree-hugging, etc.

Thanks for reading. I hope this blog post helps stimulate some brain cells for someone out there in human land. In Part 2 of this essay, I will try to research uses of Diplomacy, how to handle it, ways to make it meaningful in game writing, etc.. Horse. Cart.